[tur-users] Ion3 trademark infringement

completist · 发表于 2007-4-29 15:07:51

较枝的德国佬，值得继续关注的潜力话题，呵呵

[tur-users] Ion3 trademark infringement Inbox arch
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Tuomo Valkonen
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3:18 am (11 hours ago)
The package "ion3-darcs" [1] on AUR is infringing on the Ion3
trademark. It is not Ion3 anymore, as it modifies the installed
program in such a manner (by applying the Xft patch), that it
can not be considered the original product anymore, but a
competing one. The package must be renamed so that it can not
be confused with Ion3(tm), or the Ion project. If this is not
done, there may be legal repercurssions.
[1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?do_Details=1&ID=10622
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Jason Chu <jason@archlinux.org>
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4:50 am (10 hours ago)
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 07:18:29PM +0000, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> The package "ion3-darcs" [1] on AUR is infringing on the Ion3
> trademark. It is not Ion3 anymore, as it modifies the installed
> program in such a manner (by applying the Xft patch), that it
> can not be considered the original product anymore, but a
> competing one. The package must be renamed so that it can not
> be confused with Ion3(tm), or the Ion project. If this is not
> done, there may be legal repercurssions.
>
> [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?do_Details=1&ID=10622
>
> --
> Tuomo
I'm very sorry to hear that the inclusion of these patches makes you feel
that this package is no longer ion3.
I did have a quick look through the US Patent and Trademark website and I
couldn't find your specific trade mark. Could you refer me to the serial
number to check it out? I just want to make sure that you're making a
legitimate claim. I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with the finish
trademark system.
Jason
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Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com>
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5:09 am (9 hours ago)
Without going into whether your demands are justified or not, I'd like
to point out that your threat is misplaced. If anyone can be held
responsible for this, it's only the author of the PKGBUILD in question
since stuff stored in AUR is in no way official, it's solely users
contribution.
I will not go into what I think about what you are doing. As I'm not a
native speaker, I could accidentally use some words which would
probably represent what I'm thinking but not necessarily would be
proper to write here.
Oh and just a word for the author of the PKGBUILD: if I were you I
would consider removing it from AUR and searching for other window
manager.
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Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com>
www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com
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Tuomo Valkonen
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5:55 am (8 hours ago)
On 2007-04-28, Jason Chu <jason@archlinux.org> wrote:
> I did have a quick look through the US Patent and Trademark website and I
> couldn't find your specific trade mark.
Trademarks do not need to be registered.
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Tuomo Valkonen
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6:04 am (8 hours ago)
On 2007-04-28, Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com> wrote:
> Without going into whether your demands are justified or not, I'd like
> to point out that your threat is misplaced. If anyone can be held
> responsible for this, it's only the author of the PKGBUILD in question
> since stuff stored in AUR is in no way official, it's solely users
> contribution.
Archlinux is distributing the PKGBUILD. The PKGBUILD author refuses
to do a simple renaming of packages. He is currently LYING to users,
and distributing as 'ion3-darcs' a version with an unapproved patch
that makes it not Ion3 anymore, but a competing product, and
distributing as 'ion3-darcs-noxft' a version that might still be
called Ion3, if the setup of the extra modules does not interfere
with the standard setup.
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Tuomo
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James <iphitus@gmail.com>
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6:27 am (8 hours ago)
On 4/29/07, Tuomo Valkonen <tuomov@iki.fi> wrote:
> On 2007-04-28, Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Without going into whether your demands are justified or not, I'd like
> > to point out that your threat is misplaced. If anyone can be held
> > responsible for this, it's only the author of the PKGBUILD in question
> > since stuff stored in AUR is in no way official, it's solely users
> > contribution.
>
> Archlinux is distributing the PKGBUILD. The PKGBUILD author refuses
> to do a simple renaming of packages. He is currently LYING to users,
> and distributing as 'ion3-darcs' a version with an unapproved patch
> that makes it not Ion3 anymore, but a competing product, and
> distributing as 'ion3-darcs-noxft' a version that might still be
> called Ion3, if the setup of the extra modules does not interfere
> with the standard setup.
would it be sufficient to rename, them, ion3-darcs, and xftion3-darcs?
or are you requesting that the ion name be dropped completely from the
xft version?
James
--
iphitus // Arch Developer // kernel26beyond // iphitus.loudas.com
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Tuomo Valkonen
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6:57 am (7 hours ago)
On 2007-04-28, James <iphitus@gmail.com> wrote:
> would it be sufficient to rename, them, ion3-darcs, and xftion3-darcs?
> or are you requesting that the ion name be dropped completely from the
> xft version?
No, it does not have to be dropped, but it must be clear, that the
package does not contain the standard version of Ion3, but an
unsupported patched version. The above name 'xftion3' is not ok,
however, because 'ion3' occurs there in the name of a new product
very explicitly (cmp. AIM vs. GAIM -- and 'xftion3' is very clearly
a derivative name that doesn't stand on its own, unlike GAIM.)
It would be ok for the package name to clearly indicate its
contents, however: 'ion3-darcs+unsupported-patches'. This way
the package name does not claim to install standard Ion3, but
also does not itself form a "proper" competing product: it
merely claims to provide a "shortcut" for the user to apply
extra patches to Ion3 -- something that the user could do in
any case.
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Tuomo
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Loui <louipc.ist@gmail.com>
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7:52 am (6 hours ago)
> The above name 'xftion3' is not ok
I can understand your protectiveness towards the ion3 name but that
seems like it would be an OK name. For example if someone were to
start a new distro and start distributing it simply as 'Linux' that
would be bad, but if they called it 'MyDistro Linux' that would be OK
and would indicate that it is not the 'official' Linux but instead a
modified/customised version.
Makes sense to me.
Cheers.
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Mark Taylor <skymt0@gmail.com>
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8:11 am (6 hours ago)
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 10:04:05PM +0000, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> Archlinux is distributing the PKGBUILD. The PKGBUILD author refuses
> to do a simple renaming of packages. He is currently LYING to users,
> and distributing as 'ion3-darcs' a version with an unapproved patch
> that makes it not Ion3 anymore, but a competing product, and
> distributing as 'ion3-darcs-noxft' a version that might still be
> called Ion3, if the setup of the extra modules does not interfere
> with the standard setup.
I would contend that there is no trademark violation, as permission for
minor modifications to the source of Ion3 is implied by distributing the
source. For example, system-wide header files are included into the
source of the program prior to compilation by the preprocessor. Code in
these header files could change the behavior of Ion3 significantly, but
permission to include their code is still implied due to their necessity
in the compilation process. There is very little technical difference
between changing the code during preprocessing via an included header
file and changing it beforehand in a patch. The only way to keep
absolute control over the product as delivered to the user is to change
the license and distribute Ion3 as binary-only.
I also disagree with your mention of competition, unless it was purely
in a trademark-law sense. Wikipedia defines competition as "the act of
striving against others for the purpose of achieving dominance." The
term implies a goal, and a reward for having reached that goal. The
sharing of code and use of volunteer labor (along with the usual
practice of giving the software away without compensation) makes
dominance almost inconsequential, which means that open-source software
development is typically cooperative, with the goal of producing the
best software possible rather than merely having more users than the
other project.
Also, it may have been a poor idea to include legal threats in your
first message. A simple explanation of the situation and a suggested
solution (presented as a request) would have helped the discussion keep
a civil tone and may have allowed all parties to come to a reasonable
solution sooner. As it is, well, let me put it this way: mentioning the
law on a software-project mailing list is often like starting a fire in
an ammunition warehouse (see: Debian).
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Tuomo Valkonen
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8:18 am (6 hours ago)
On 2007-04-28, Loui <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can understand your protectiveness towards the ion3 name but that
> seems like it would be an OK name. For example if someone were to
> start a new distro and start distributing it simply as 'Linux' that
> would be bad, but if they called it 'MyDistro Linux' that would be OK
> and would indicate that it is not the 'official' Linux but instead a
> modified/customised version.
This is quite a different situation: A distribution doesn't compete
with the kernel, but utilises it. A fork is a competing product.
xftion3 is equivalent to forking the kernel, and calling it
FEATUREXLinux without asking permission. I'm sure Linus wouldn't
like that. In fact, he must not like such forks or even distributions,
without permission, or he risks losing the -- this time registered --
trademark.
http://www.linuxmark.org/who_needs.php
So, create a distribution or even an operation environment (not a
"desktop environment" -- it implies the crappy desktop metaphor)
based on Ion3, that does not contain patches that I do not approve
of, and you may use an Ion-based name. But fork, and you have to
call it something else.
--
Tuomo
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Tuomo Valkonen
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8:31 am (6 hours ago)
On 2007-04-29, Mark Taylor <skymt0@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would contend that there is no trademark violation, as permission for
> minor modifications to the source of Ion3 is implied by distributing the
> source.
Nothing promises you must still be able to call it Ion3. (Despite the
license being LGPL, I really don't care what you do with the code --
use it even in a commercial closed source project if you want. Just
don't claim my work as someone else's, and someone else's work as mine
-- as is being done by applying patches and still claiming it to be
Ion3.)
> The only way to keep absolute control over the product as delivered to
> the user is to change the license and distribute Ion3 as binary-only.
I am going to do that. And, in fact, after final Ion3 is released, I'm
not going to write a line of so-called "free software"; so poor has
been the treatment of the FOSS herd (both of my code, and of the good
old *nix), that I'm not going to do them any services any more.
> I also disagree with your mention of competition, unless it was purely
> in a trademark-law sense. Wikipedia defines competition as "the act of
> striving against others for the purpose of achieving dominance."
The goal of an XFT-patched Ion is dominance over the standard Ion,
and dominance over people who prefer decent font systems over the
Xft and fontconfig based blurry-font force-feeding shit, as the
good old core font system gets obsoleted and removed.
> which means that open-source software development is typically
> cooperative, with the goal of producing the best software possible rather
> than merely having more users than the other project.
The goal of the FOSS herd is to turn everything into homogeneous
shit, with no trace of individual character left.
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Loui <louipc.ist@gmail.com>
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9:12 am (5 hours ago)
On 4/28/07, Tuomo Valkonen <tuomov@iki.fi> wrote:
> This is quite a different situation: A distribution doesn't compete
> with the kernel, but utilises it. A fork is a competing product.
> xftion3 is equivalent to forking the kernel, and calling it
> FEATUREXLinux without asking permission. I'm sure Linus wouldn't
> like that. In fact, he must not like such forks or even distributions,
> without permission, or he risks losing the -- this time registered --
> trademark.
I'm pretty sure many distros do indeed patch the kernel.
It seems like maybe the PKGBUILD shouldn't really point to your
webpage, but rather a page about the patches applied. Just as
'mydistro-kernel' would refer to it's own resources rather than
kernel.org
Maybe the packager should make a webpage with the patches and other info.
Call it 'notion'
*grin*
Yeah I see your point about code usage and such. He shouldn't be
patching it and then saying that you applied them by pointing to your
website. It's not -really- a name issue is it?
Maybe some devs or TUs should give the packager a little nudge eh?
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Mark Taylor <skymt0@gmail.com>
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9:51 am (5 hours ago)
On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 12:31:31AM +0000, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> Nothing promises you must still be able to call it Ion3. (Despite the
> license being LGPL, I really don't care what you do with the code --
> use it even in a commercial closed source project if you want. Just
> don't claim my work as someone else's, and someone else's work as mine
> -- as is being done by applying patches and still claiming it to be
> Ion3.)
Actually, you do allow people to patch Ion3 with unapproved code and
still call it "Ion3." As I mentioned earlier, this is exactly what the C
preprocessor does with #includes. If I were to patch the X11 header
files (not the actual Ion3 source, at least until the preprocessing
stage) to use XFT instead of the traditional font system and then
compile Ion3 from unmodified sources, would the result be Ion3?
If not, then I expect you'll be quite busy for a while, reading all the
distribution/OS-specific versions of header files Ion includes to make
sure they don't do anything you disapprove of.
> I am going to do that. And, in fact, after final Ion3 is released, I'm
> not going to write a line of so-called "free software"; so poor has
> been the treatment of the FOSS herd (both of my code, and of the good
> old *nix), that I'm not going to do them any services any more.
I have no problem with that. I use, and enjoy using, many closed-source
products. Unlike some FOSS advocates, I think closed-source is a
perfectly valid form of software distribution and development, and is in
fact preferable under some circumstances (including yours, where the
developer wants to keep personal control of the project).
You should probably only release Ion3 statically compiled, so you don't
have to monitor changes in dynamically-linked libraries. After all,
changes there can also modify the behavior of Ion3, leading to the
spontaneous generation of competing window managers. If you insist on
absolute purity for your creation, it will also be necessary to include
a statically-linked X server and statically-linked video drivers.
> The goal of an XFT-patched Ion is dominance over the standard Ion,
> and dominance over people who prefer decent font systems over the
> Xft and fontconfig based blurry-font force-feeding shit, as the
> good old core font system gets obsoleted and removed.
The goal of an XFT-patched Ion is to allow users of your window manager
to use the font system they, for one reason or another, prefer. Even if
the XFT-patched version became more popular (unlikely, as people tend to
prefer the "vanilla" version of a piece of software), there would be no
detrimental effect on the development of Ion or on the users of Ion
as you release it.
> The goal of the FOSS herd is to turn everything into homogeneous
> shit, with no trace of individual character left.
That is your personal opinion of the results of the FOSS movement, not a
valid description of the actual goal. It's also completely off-topic and
an excellent way to troll a Linux-related discussion forum. My previous
simile about the ammunition warehouse applies here as well.
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Mark
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Georgij Kondratjev <smpuj@bk.ru>
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3:02 pm (1 minute ago)
First, I have the same point of view as Mark Taylor and absolutely agree with
him.
Second, even if Tuomo is not right, we can rename ion3-noxft-darcs to
ion3-darcs.
But we must provide a patch too because AUR is a place to help people to
easily install software that they wont.
In fact we don`t need to ask an author how to name our scripts building his
package.
I think that renaming current ion3-darcs to ion3-xft-darcs (if we will rename
anything) would be enough.
Tuomo don`t wont to help ArchLinux users to use better software, he just wont
to control the way how his software is used. LGPL is not an appropriate
license for that, but I am sure license does not matter.
Pkgbuild is not a fork - it is an instruction. How the "product" can be
competing if it do not even exists? Anyway whatever license will you use -
you cannot control the way user will use it after downloading it to his
machine if it will not distribute it to over users. If your project is open
source modifying it becomes really easy. Distributing instructions on how to
do this is always legitimate.
Did not you make mistake then you have chosen open source model of
distribution?
PS: ArchLinux is not the only distribution which provides such an instruction.
There is at least Gentoo.
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Pierre Schmitz <pierre@archlinux.de>
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3:02 pm (1 minute ago)
Am Samstag, 28. April 2007 21:18:29 schrieb Tuomo Valkonen:
> The package "ion3-darcs" [1] on AUR is infringing on the Ion3
> trademark. It is not Ion3 anymore, as it modifies the installed
> program in such a manner (by applying the Xft patch), that it
> can not be considered the original product anymore, but a
> competing one. The package must be renamed so that it can not
> be confused with Ion3(tm), or the Ion project. If this is not
> done, there may be legal repercurssions.
>
> [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?do_Details=1&ID=10622
Hi Tuomo,
even if someone does not understand why you don`t want a patched version of
your software distributed, one has to respect you decision.
Just in case you did not know: there is no package of ion3 distributed by
archlinux. The link you mentioned above just contains a description of how to
build your software (including some patches). Those scripts can be uploaded
by everybody.
Our official ion package can be found at
http://www.archlinux.org/packages/841/
If you still feel uncomfortable about this, just let me know. I`ll remove all
ion scripts from AUR then. (but we cannot guarantee that a user will not
upload similar scripts in future)
Pierre
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复制代码

mafuzimeng · 发表于 2007-4-29 21:06:36

很想用ion3 但是相关的中文资料太少了

全科芒 · 发表于 2007-4-29 21:24:54

ion3用过几天，快
可惜键盘操作多，不习惯，没用了

completist · 发表于 2007-4-30 08:41:48

德囯鸟人的话起作用了，arch上ion3相关的东东差不多都删了，看来要换回wmii/fvwm了，或者换用ratpoison，本来还想写点简介

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