|
较枝的德国佬,值得继续关注的潜力话题,呵呵
- [tur-users] Ion3 trademark infringement Inbox arch
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Tuomo to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Tuomo Valkonen
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 3:18 am (11 hours ago)
- The package "ion3-darcs" [1] on AUR is infringing on the Ion3
- trademark. It is not Ion3 anymore, as it modifies the installed
- program in such a manner (by applying the Xft patch), that it
- can not be considered the original product anymore, but a
- competing one. The package must be renamed so that it can not
- be confused with Ion3(tm), or the Ion project. If this is not
- done, there may be legal repercurssions.
- [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?do_Details=1&ID=10622
- --
- Tuomo
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Tuomo to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Jason to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Jason Chu <jason@archlinux.org>
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 4:50 am (10 hours ago)
- On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 07:18:29PM +0000, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
- > The package "ion3-darcs" [1] on AUR is infringing on the Ion3
- > trademark. It is not Ion3 anymore, as it modifies the installed
- > program in such a manner (by applying the Xft patch), that it
- > can not be considered the original product anymore, but a
- > competing one. The package must be renamed so that it can not
- > be confused with Ion3(tm), or the Ion project. If this is not
- > done, there may be legal repercurssions.
- >
- > [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?do_Details=1&ID=10622
- >
- > --
- > Tuomo
- I'm very sorry to hear that the inclusion of these patches makes you feel
- that this package is no longer ion3.
- I did have a quick look through the US Patent and Trademark website and I
- couldn't find your specific trade mark. Could you refer me to the serial
- number to check it out? I just want to make sure that you're making a
- legitimate claim. I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with the finish
- trademark system.
- Jason
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
- noname
- 1K Download
-
- Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Jason to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Jaroslaw to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com>
- to Discussion
-
- show details
- 5:09 am (9 hours ago)
- Without going into whether your demands are justified or not, I'd like
- to point out that your threat is misplaced. If anyone can be held
- responsible for this, it's only the author of the PKGBUILD in question
- since stuff stored in AUR is in no way official, it's solely users
- contribution.
- I will not go into what I think about what you are doing. As I'm not a
- native speaker, I could accidentally use some words which would
- probably represent what I'm thinking but not necessarily would be
- proper to write here.
- Oh and just a word for the author of the PKGBUILD: if I were you I
- would consider removing it from AUR and searching for other window
- manager.
- --
- Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com>
- www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Jaroslaw to chat
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Tuomo to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Tuomo Valkonen
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 5:55 am (8 hours ago)
- On 2007-04-28, Jason Chu <jason@archlinux.org> wrote:
- > I did have a quick look through the US Patent and Trademark website and I
- > couldn't find your specific trade mark.
- Trademarks do not need to be registered.
- - Show quoted text -
- --
- Tuomo
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Tuomo to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Tuomo to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Tuomo Valkonen
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 6:04 am (8 hours ago)
- On 2007-04-28, Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com> wrote:
- > Without going into whether your demands are justified or not, I'd like
- > to point out that your threat is misplaced. If anyone can be held
- > responsible for this, it's only the author of the PKGBUILD in question
- > since stuff stored in AUR is in no way official, it's solely users
- > contribution.
- Archlinux is distributing the PKGBUILD. The PKGBUILD author refuses
- to do a simple renaming of packages. He is currently LYING to users,
- and distributing as 'ion3-darcs' a version with an unapproved patch
- that makes it not Ion3 anymore, but a competing product, and
- distributing as 'ion3-darcs-noxft' a version that might still be
- called Ion3, if the setup of the extra modules does not interfere
- with the standard setup.
- --
- Tuomo
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Tuomo to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add James to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- James <iphitus@gmail.com>
- to Discussion
-
- show details
- 6:27 am (8 hours ago)
- On 4/29/07, Tuomo Valkonen <tuomov@iki.fi> wrote:
- > On 2007-04-28, Jaroslaw Swierczynski <swiergot@gmail.com> wrote:
- > > Without going into whether your demands are justified or not, I'd like
- > > to point out that your threat is misplaced. If anyone can be held
- > > responsible for this, it's only the author of the PKGBUILD in question
- > > since stuff stored in AUR is in no way official, it's solely users
- > > contribution.
- >
- > Archlinux is distributing the PKGBUILD. The PKGBUILD author refuses
- > to do a simple renaming of packages. He is currently LYING to users,
- > and distributing as 'ion3-darcs' a version with an unapproved patch
- > that makes it not Ion3 anymore, but a competing product, and
- > distributing as 'ion3-darcs-noxft' a version that might still be
- > called Ion3, if the setup of the extra modules does not interfere
- > with the standard setup.
- would it be sufficient to rename, them, ion3-darcs, and xftion3-darcs?
- or are you requesting that the ion name be dropped completely from the
- xft version?
- James
- --
- iphitus // Arch Developer // kernel26beyond // iphitus.loudas.com
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite James to chat
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Tuomo to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Tuomo Valkonen
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 6:57 am (7 hours ago)
- On 2007-04-28, James <iphitus@gmail.com> wrote:
- > would it be sufficient to rename, them, ion3-darcs, and xftion3-darcs?
- > or are you requesting that the ion name be dropped completely from the
- > xft version?
- No, it does not have to be dropped, but it must be clear, that the
- package does not contain the standard version of Ion3, but an
- unsupported patched version. The above name 'xftion3' is not ok,
- however, because 'ion3' occurs there in the name of a new product
- very explicitly (cmp. AIM vs. GAIM -- and 'xftion3' is very clearly
- a derivative name that doesn't stand on its own, unlike GAIM.)
- It would be ok for the package name to clearly indicate its
- contents, however: 'ion3-darcs+unsupported-patches'. This way
- the package name does not claim to install standard Ion3, but
- also does not itself form a "proper" competing product: it
- merely claims to provide a "shortcut" for the user to apply
- extra patches to Ion3 -- something that the user could do in
- any case.
- --
- Tuomo
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Tuomo to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Loui to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Loui <louipc.ist@gmail.com>
- to Discussion
-
- show details
- 7:52 am (6 hours ago)
- > The above name 'xftion3' is not ok
- I can understand your protectiveness towards the ion3 name but that
- seems like it would be an OK name. For example if someone were to
- start a new distro and start distributing it simply as 'Linux' that
- would be bad, but if they called it 'MyDistro Linux' that would be OK
- and would indicate that it is not the 'official' Linux but instead a
- modified/customised version.
- Makes sense to me.
- Cheers.
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Loui to chat
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Mark to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Mark Taylor <skymt0@gmail.com>
- to Discussion
-
- show details
- 8:11 am (6 hours ago)
- On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 10:04:05PM +0000, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
- > Archlinux is distributing the PKGBUILD. The PKGBUILD author refuses
- > to do a simple renaming of packages. He is currently LYING to users,
- > and distributing as 'ion3-darcs' a version with an unapproved patch
- > that makes it not Ion3 anymore, but a competing product, and
- > distributing as 'ion3-darcs-noxft' a version that might still be
- > called Ion3, if the setup of the extra modules does not interfere
- > with the standard setup.
- I would contend that there is no trademark violation, as permission for
- minor modifications to the source of Ion3 is implied by distributing the
- source. For example, system-wide header files are included into the
- source of the program prior to compilation by the preprocessor. Code in
- these header files could change the behavior of Ion3 significantly, but
- permission to include their code is still implied due to their necessity
- in the compilation process. There is very little technical difference
- between changing the code during preprocessing via an included header
- file and changing it beforehand in a patch. The only way to keep
- absolute control over the product as delivered to the user is to change
- the license and distribute Ion3 as binary-only.
- I also disagree with your mention of competition, unless it was purely
- in a trademark-law sense. Wikipedia defines competition as "the act of
- striving against others for the purpose of achieving dominance." The
- term implies a goal, and a reward for having reached that goal. The
- sharing of code and use of volunteer labor (along with the usual
- practice of giving the software away without compensation) makes
- dominance almost inconsequential, which means that open-source software
- development is typically cooperative, with the goal of producing the
- best software possible rather than merely having more users than the
- other project.
- Also, it may have been a poor idea to include legal threats in your
- first message. A simple explanation of the situation and a suggested
- solution (presented as a request) would have helped the discussion keep
- a civil tone and may have allowed all parties to come to a reasonable
- solution sooner. As it is, well, let me put it this way: mentioning the
- law on a software-project mailing list is often like starting a fire in
- an ammunition warehouse (see: Debian).
- --
- Mark
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
- noname
- 1K Download
-
- Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Mark to chat
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Tuomo to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Tuomo Valkonen
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 8:18 am (6 hours ago)
- On 2007-04-28, Loui <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
- > I can understand your protectiveness towards the ion3 name but that
- > seems like it would be an OK name. For example if someone were to
- > start a new distro and start distributing it simply as 'Linux' that
- > would be bad, but if they called it 'MyDistro Linux' that would be OK
- > and would indicate that it is not the 'official' Linux but instead a
- > modified/customised version.
- This is quite a different situation: A distribution doesn't compete
- with the kernel, but utilises it. A fork is a competing product.
- xftion3 is equivalent to forking the kernel, and calling it
- FEATUREXLinux without asking permission. I'm sure Linus wouldn't
- like that. In fact, he must not like such forks or even distributions,
- without permission, or he risks losing the -- this time registered --
- trademark.
- http://www.linuxmark.org/who_needs.php
- So, create a distribution or even an operation environment (not a
- "desktop environment" -- it implies the crappy desktop metaphor)
- based on Ion3, that does not contain patches that I do not approve
- of, and you may use an Ion-based name. But fork, and you have to
- call it something else.
- --
- Tuomo
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Tuomo to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Tuomo to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Tuomo Valkonen
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 8:31 am (6 hours ago)
- On 2007-04-29, Mark Taylor <skymt0@gmail.com> wrote:
- > I would contend that there is no trademark violation, as permission for
- > minor modifications to the source of Ion3 is implied by distributing the
- > source.
- Nothing promises you must still be able to call it Ion3. (Despite the
- license being LGPL, I really don't care what you do with the code --
- use it even in a commercial closed source project if you want. Just
- don't claim my work as someone else's, and someone else's work as mine
- -- as is being done by applying patches and still claiming it to be
- Ion3.)
- > The only way to keep absolute control over the product as delivered to
- > the user is to change the license and distribute Ion3 as binary-only.
- I am going to do that. And, in fact, after final Ion3 is released, I'm
- not going to write a line of so-called "free software"; so poor has
- been the treatment of the FOSS herd (both of my code, and of the good
- old *nix), that I'm not going to do them any services any more.
- > I also disagree with your mention of competition, unless it was purely
- > in a trademark-law sense. Wikipedia defines competition as "the act of
- > striving against others for the purpose of achieving dominance."
- The goal of an XFT-patched Ion is dominance over the standard Ion,
- and dominance over people who prefer decent font systems over the
- Xft and fontconfig based blurry-font force-feeding shit, as the
- good old core font system gets obsoleted and removed.
- > which means that open-source software development is typically
- > cooperative, with the goal of producing the best software possible rather
- > than merely having more users than the other project.
- The goal of the FOSS herd is to turn everything into homogeneous
- shit, with no trace of individual character left.
- - Show quoted text -
- --
- Tuomo
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Tuomo to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Loui to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Loui <louipc.ist@gmail.com>
- to Discussion
-
- show details
- 9:12 am (5 hours ago)
- On 4/28/07, Tuomo Valkonen <tuomov@iki.fi> wrote:
- > This is quite a different situation: A distribution doesn't compete
- > with the kernel, but utilises it. A fork is a competing product.
- > xftion3 is equivalent to forking the kernel, and calling it
- > FEATUREXLinux without asking permission. I'm sure Linus wouldn't
- > like that. In fact, he must not like such forks or even distributions,
- > without permission, or he risks losing the -- this time registered --
- > trademark.
- I'm pretty sure many distros do indeed patch the kernel.
- It seems like maybe the PKGBUILD shouldn't really point to your
- webpage, but rather a page about the patches applied. Just as
- 'mydistro-kernel' would refer to it's own resources rather than
- kernel.org
- Maybe the packager should make a webpage with the patches and other info.
- Call it 'notion'
- *grin*
- Yeah I see your point about code usage and such. He shouldn't be
- patching it and then saying that you applied them by pointing to your
- website. It's not -really- a name issue is it?
- Maybe some devs or TUs should give the packager a little nudge eh?
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Loui to chat
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Mark to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Mark Taylor <skymt0@gmail.com>
- to Discussion
-
- show details
- 9:51 am (5 hours ago)
- On Sun, Apr 29, 2007 at 12:31:31AM +0000, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
- > Nothing promises you must still be able to call it Ion3. (Despite the
- > license being LGPL, I really don't care what you do with the code --
- > use it even in a commercial closed source project if you want. Just
- > don't claim my work as someone else's, and someone else's work as mine
- > -- as is being done by applying patches and still claiming it to be
- > Ion3.)
- Actually, you do allow people to patch Ion3 with unapproved code and
- still call it "Ion3." As I mentioned earlier, this is exactly what the C
- preprocessor does with #includes. If I were to patch the X11 header
- files (not the actual Ion3 source, at least until the preprocessing
- stage) to use XFT instead of the traditional font system and then
- compile Ion3 from unmodified sources, would the result be Ion3?
- If not, then I expect you'll be quite busy for a while, reading all the
- distribution/OS-specific versions of header files Ion includes to make
- sure they don't do anything you disapprove of.
- > I am going to do that. And, in fact, after final Ion3 is released, I'm
- > not going to write a line of so-called "free software"; so poor has
- > been the treatment of the FOSS herd (both of my code, and of the good
- > old *nix), that I'm not going to do them any services any more.
- I have no problem with that. I use, and enjoy using, many closed-source
- products. Unlike some FOSS advocates, I think closed-source is a
- perfectly valid form of software distribution and development, and is in
- fact preferable under some circumstances (including yours, where the
- developer wants to keep personal control of the project).
- You should probably only release Ion3 statically compiled, so you don't
- have to monitor changes in dynamically-linked libraries. After all,
- changes there can also modify the behavior of Ion3, leading to the
- spontaneous generation of competing window managers. If you insist on
- absolute purity for your creation, it will also be necessary to include
- a statically-linked X server and statically-linked video drivers.
- > The goal of an XFT-patched Ion is dominance over the standard Ion,
- > and dominance over people who prefer decent font systems over the
- > Xft and fontconfig based blurry-font force-feeding shit, as the
- > good old core font system gets obsoleted and removed.
- The goal of an XFT-patched Ion is to allow users of your window manager
- to use the font system they, for one reason or another, prefer. Even if
- the XFT-patched version became more popular (unlikely, as people tend to
- prefer the "vanilla" version of a piece of software), there would be no
- detrimental effect on the development of Ion or on the users of Ion
- as you release it.
- > The goal of the FOSS herd is to turn everything into homogeneous
- > shit, with no trace of individual character left.
- That is your personal opinion of the results of the FOSS movement, not a
- valid description of the actual goal. It's also completely off-topic and
- an excellent way to troll a Linux-related discussion forum. My previous
- simile about the ammunition warehouse applies here as well.
- --
- Mark
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
- noname
- 1K Download
-
- Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Mark to chat
-
-
-
-
- # Choose Language
- # Auto
- # English (US)
- # English (UK)
- # Deutsch
- # Español
- # Português
- # Português (Portugal)
- # Français
- # Italiano
- # Nederlands
- # Polski
- # Svenska
- # Norsk
- # Suomi
- # Dansk
- # Български
- # Hrvatski
- # Magyar
- # Slovenský
- # Slovenščina
- # Українська
- # Tiếng Việt
- # Ελληνικά
- # Íslenska
- # Bahasa Indonesia
- # Català
- # Český
- # Eesti keel
- # हिन्दी
- # Lietuvių
- # Română
- # Русский
- # Tagalog
- # Hebrew
- # Arabic
- # Malay
- # Latin
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Georgij to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Georgij Kondratjev <smpuj@bk.ru>
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 3:02 pm (1 minute ago)
- First, I have the same point of view as Mark Taylor and absolutely agree with
- him.
- Second, even if Tuomo is not right, we can rename ion3-noxft-darcs to
- ion3-darcs.
- But we must provide a patch too because AUR is a place to help people to
- easily install software that they wont.
- In fact we don`t need to ask an author how to name our scripts building his
- package.
- I think that renaming current ion3-darcs to ion3-xft-darcs (if we will rename
- anything) would be enough.
- Tuomo don`t wont to help ArchLinux users to use better software, he just wont
- to control the way how his software is used. LGPL is not an appropriate
- license for that, but I am sure license does not matter.
- Pkgbuild is not a fork - it is an instruction. How the "product" can be
- competing if it do not even exists? Anyway whatever license will you use -
- you cannot control the way user will use it after downloading it to his
- machine if it will not distribute it to over users. If your project is open
- source modifying it becomes really easy. Distributing instructions on how to
- do this is always legitimate.
- Did not you make mistake then you have chosen open source model of
- distribution?
- PS: ArchLinux is not the only distribution which provides such an instruction.
- There is at least Gentoo.
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
-
- Reply Forward Invite Georgij to Gmail
-
-
-
-
- Reply
- Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Pierre to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled?
- Pierre Schmitz <pierre@archlinux.de>
- to tur-users
-
- show details
- 3:02 pm (1 minute ago)
- Am Samstag, 28. April 2007 21:18:29 schrieb Tuomo Valkonen:
- > The package "ion3-darcs" [1] on AUR is infringing on the Ion3
- > trademark. It is not Ion3 anymore, as it modifies the installed
- > program in such a manner (by applying the Xft patch), that it
- > can not be considered the original product anymore, but a
- > competing one. The package must be renamed so that it can not
- > be confused with Ion3(tm), or the Ion project. If this is not
- > done, there may be legal repercurssions.
- >
- > [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?do_Details=1&ID=10622
- Hi Tuomo,
- even if someone does not understand why you don`t want a patched version of
- your software distributed, one has to respect you decision.
- Just in case you did not know: there is no package of ion3 distributed by
- archlinux. The link you mentioned above just contains a description of how to
- build your software (including some patches). Those scripts can be uploaded
- by everybody.
- Our official ion package can be found at
- http://www.archlinux.org/packages/841/
- If you still feel uncomfortable about this, just let me know. I`ll remove all
- ion scripts from AUR then. (but we cannot guarantee that a user will not
- upload similar scripts in future)
- Pierre
- - Show quoted text -
- _______________________________________________
- tur-users mailing list
- tur-users@archlinux.org
- http://archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/tur-users
复制代码 |
|